There is something important to be learned from the arguments of leftists: that their standards, being inevitably indiscriminate, ensure their logic is contorted, their moralizing hypocritical, and their aims hopelessly obfuscated.
In an editorial titled War is not a solution for terrorism Howard Zinn confirms these inconvenient truths once again.
Published on Saturday, September 2, 2006 by the Boston Globe.
THERE IS SOMETHING important to be learned from the recent experience of the United States and Israel in the Middle East: that massive military attacks, inevitably indiscriminate, are not only morally reprehensible, but useless in achieving the stated aims of those who carry them out.
The United States, in three years of war, which began with shock-and-awe bombardment and goes on with day-to-day violence and chaos, has been an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq. The Israeli invasion and bombing of Lebanon has not brought security to Israel; indeed it has increased the number of its enemies, whether in Hezbollah or Hamas or among Arabs who belong to neither of those groups.
To characterize the war waged by the US in Iraq and Israel against Hizballah in Lebanon as “inevitably indiscriminate” you could be ignorant of history and how these recent wars differ substantially from precedent, or you could simply be ignoring it. Zinn served in war as a B-17 bombardier so he should understand something not only of war but of what “indiscriminate” means. Are we to believe that when he dropped bombs he tried to hit facilities used by the enemy to wage war, thus shortening the war and saving lives, or should we adopt his argument and assume he dropped his bombs indiscriminantly?
Like most Allied bombing during and since WWII the “shock-and-awe bombardment” to which Zinn refers targetted primarily military and government sites. How is this indiscriminate? The most notable difference over time has been the increasing precision achieved at great expense with the aim of reducing accidental death and destruction inflicted on the innocent. So what is Zinn’s standard? Does he apply it to all who fight, or only the US and Israel? If violence and suffering are morally reprehensible then anything that decreases them is morally good, and anything that increases them is morally bad. No?
If Zinn thinks Israeli leaflets are “indiscriminant” then what word does he use to describe the rockets Hizballah and HAMAS deliberately fire in the hope of killing random civilians? Does he not realize that the jihadis use violence as a tool, that they use civilization’s own media to propagandize and intimidate those with pacifist tendencies? Why in the world doesn’t he get righteously indignant about the jihadis?
The US Congress’ casus belli against Iraq were many, and they belie any claim that the goal in Iraq was first and foremost to spread democracy. The goal was to topple Saddam, and that mission was indeed accomplished. After that why shouldn’t the Iraqis try democracy, and why shouldn’t we help them? Does Zinn realize the Iraqi (and Afghani) people purpled their fingers even under the threat of violence and death? Will Zinn acknowledge that the threats come from the jihadis, and not from the armies of civilization? If he can describe the constitution and democratically elected government in Iraq (and Afghanistan) today as “utter failure” one can only wonder what words he would use if the US withdrew and the jihadis came to power. Would Zinn call that a “super duper failure”, or maybe “utter success”? I’d rather not find out.
Zinn seems to believe that civilized armies are responsible for all the violence, zipping around dropping bombs whereever they think there might be a terrorist. He does so by willfully ignoring the very strict constraints those armies operate under. Consult for example the US military’s rules of engagement. We expect our soldiers to be lawyers and policemen as well as warriors. It is in fact the Baathists and jihadis (with a large amount of help from Iran and Syria) who deliberately cause death and destruction in Iraq. They initiate it because they benefit from the chaos and intimidation it creates. They assassinate anyone who is too secular, detonate bombs in crowds of civilians, and saw the heads off any infidel or friend of infidels they can get their bloody hands on. And neither one of those hands is ever tied behind their backs by world opinion, the UN, or the quaint notions of the Geneva Convention.
It also seems safe to assume Zinn knows nothing of the violence and suffering under Saddam or how it compares to the casualty rate now.
The history of wars fought since the end of World War II reveals the futility of large-scale violence. The United States and the Soviet Union, despite their enormous firepower, were unable to defeat resistance movements in small, weak nations — the United States in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan — and were forced to withdraw.
Even the “victories” of great military powers turn out to be elusive. Presumably, after attacking and invading Afghanistan, the president was able to declare that the Taliban were defeated. But more than four years later, Afghanistan is rife with violence, and the Taliban are active in much of the country.
This appears to be an example of what leftists like to call “cherrypicking”. At the same time it modestly overlooks the role leftist undermining can play in achieving defeat.
England’s exploitation of the US was ended by large-scale violence. As was slavery. As were the totalitarian aspirations of Germany, Italy, and Japan a century later. Too bad Zinn cleverly excludes these by date. He then overlooks the fact that the Cold War was “fought” entirely under the umbrella of Mutually Assured Destruction, a strategy used by both sides. Thus we know empirically that the threat of large-scale retaliatory violence can actually deter violence. At least when both sides prefer to avoid violence.
The book Militant Tricks makes a solid case that the jihadis purposely goad the US military into using its preferred tactic of overwhelming firepower, hoping for spillover. That doesn’t mean every use of force is a ruse, or does spillover, and at any rate the book’s suggested solution is not pacifism, it is light infantry applying force more selectively.
The US soundly defeated the Taliban in Afghanistan. The problem is that the Taliban are based in Pakistan, and from there they keep Afghanistan “rife with violence”. As with Iraq Zinn again implies absurdly that this is all the fault of the US. As if the US military is murdering civilians as a matter of course, and the Taliban is trying to build roads.
The US withdrawal from Vietnam and Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan were “forced” by the their own public opinion more than any other factor. What he euphemistically calls “resistance movements” were but sock puppets for the larger actors in the Cold War. These sock puppets did not win. At any rate Zinn does not mention that in both cases pacifists got what the withdrawals they wanted. And of course he does not mention the bloodbaths that followed.
Beyond the futility of armed force, and ultimately more important, is the fact that war in our time inevitably results in the indiscriminate killing of large numbers of people. To put it more bluntly, war is terrorism. That is why a “war on terrorism” is a contradiction in terms. Wars waged by nations, whether by the United States or Israel, are a hundred times more deadly for innocent people than the attacks by terrorists, vicious as they are.
Zinn asserts war is terrorism, and that war (and thus also terrorism) inevitably results in indiscriminate killing.
First, I do not abide his conflation of war and terrorism. Words have established meanings that you cannot ignore or change just for the sake of your argument. Second, the claim that war and terrorism are indiscriminant is patently false. Warriors and terrorists both choose their targets, ie. they do discriminate.
War, at least in contemporary Western form, primarily concerns forming an officially sanctioned and uniformed force under orders to engage and destroy the forces (uniformed or not) of hostile powers, constrained by primarily Western conventions of lawful warfare. Civilians are killed in war, sometimes even deliberately, but most usually by those who resort to terrorist tactics. It is specifically not the aim of civilized militaries and is not necessarily the result. Why else does civilization waste so much energy concocting rules of war, and prosecuting those who violate them?
Terrorism, jihadi style, especially prefers attacks “deadly for innocent people”. The jihadis are generally unpredictable but patient, carefully selecting and planning their attacks. Right under the noses of the civilization’s media they use civilization’s internet to spread hate and lies with virtually no controversy or coverage. The same nations adhering to the rules of war can’t imprison or even listen to what this enemy is saying without being taken to task by the same media that is deaf dumb and blind to the premeditated depredations of the jihadis.
So the jihadis don’t have a media revealing and debating the propriety of their every move. Their armies are irregular, operating without open sovereign sponsership, uniforms, or even much supervision. And it has so far been a fruitful strategy for them. For one it allows them to fly under the radar and escape the detection of Zinn and other pacifists. But these substantial differences are exactly why it is ridiculous to insist that war and terrorism are one and the same. Terrorists ignore and flagrantly violate the laws of war. They often murder civilians, which is of course the central distinction. Terrorists do not follow the rules, do not punish murderers. When Zinn reduces deaths caused by either war or terrorism to simple “killing” he’s waving a magic wand that would just as easily abolish any difference between manslaughter and murder.
Sadly Zinn and his fellow travelers do not recognize that the primary enemy in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and many other places are jihadis – not a random collection of unrelated “terrorists”. His knowledge of history does not appear to include any understanding of the length or relative cost of the jihad Islam has waged for nearly 1400 years, or that long before “nations” existed Muslim armies swept out of Arabia – without the excuse of colonialism, the Crusades, Abu Graib, or Gitmo – and crushed the most advanced civilizations of the day. The jihadis eventually killed and subjugated people from Spain to India. And within the past decades they’ve reawakened and resumed the jihad. Does he count how deadly this has been for innocent people, or is blaming all this on civilization’s armies too?
The repeated excuse, given by both Pentagon spokespersons and Israeli officials, for dropping bombs where ordinary people live is that terrorists hide among civilians. Therefore the killing of innocent people (in Iraq, in Lebanon) is called accidental, whereas the deaths caused by terrorists (on 9/11, by Hezbollah rockets) are deliberate.
This is a false distinction, quickly refuted with a bit of thought. If a bomb is deliberately dropped on a house or a vehicle on the grounds that a “suspected terrorist” is inside (note the frequent use of the word suspected as evidence of the uncertainty surrounding targets), the resulting deaths of women and children may not be intentional. But neither are they accidental. The proper description is “inevitable.”
So if an action will inevitably kill innocent people, it is as immoral as a deliberate attack on civilians. And when you consider that the number of innocent people dying inevitably in “accidental” events has been far, far greater than all the deaths deliberately caused by terrorists, one must reject war as a solution for terrorism.
OK. That’s more than enough. Let’s finish with just a bit more thought than Mr. Zinn seems able to muster.
Civilization hires police to deter and deal with those who would harm innocent people. In the pursuit of this task it is “inevitable” that the police also accidentally kill innocent people. Should we not then have police? The military’s job is tougher because they work often outside civilization’s borders, fighting people who don’t play by civilization’s rules. Shall we then simply ignore those would harm innocent people but hide outside civilization’s borders?
Zinn treats words and numbers like putty. He envies the power of logic and apes its language, but fails to follow the rules from which its power derives. He does not apply his criticisms fairly, and certainly not to himself. Such mendacity is the mark of either a charlatan or a fool and has earned him undying infamy as a moonbat hero.
Zinn sounds like a pacifist. But, your effort to discredit his thoughts fall short…
“…that massive military attacks, inevitably indiscriminate, are not only morally reprehensible, but useless in achieving the stated aims of those who carry them out.”
“Inevitably indiscriminate” makes no reference or comparison to past wars or military engagements. Furthermore, its more likely than not Zinn’s experience as a WWII bombadier serving up “inevitably indiscriminate” 4000 pound payloads on German factory towns is exactly what created his anti-war psyche.
“Indiscriminate” is answered in your own argument to mean dropping bombs on intended targets that house the enemy but do not discriminate between enemy and civilians. It is morally reprehensible because WAR IS morally reprehensible. War, waged discriminantly or indiscriminantly creates such bile that no matter what we do we cannot remove it from our mouths and the taste lingers long after to remind us of what we should avoid. It is in direct conflict with our sense of morality regardless of who the aggressor was.
War in and of itself is inevitable. Our differences, our hungers, our greed and envy drive the wedge between us. Simply declaring a 1400 year jihad is to blame and dispatching references to other sources (crusades/colonialism/persecution) is as absurd as saying Christianity became globally dominant due to its citations of peace.
You further make Zinn’s point with “Warriors and terrorists both choose their targets, ie. they do discriminate.” Hence, Zinn’s allegation against the US and Isreal that they are inevitably killing innocents (discriminant or indiscriminant is a meaningless point).
Distinguishing between warriors and terrorists is additionally absurd. Would you feel better if the terrorists war uniforms, bought cluster bombs from the black market and dropped them on Lockheed Martin facilities (“…bombs [he] tried to hit facilities used by the enemy to wage war, thus shortening the war and saving lives…”) in Bethesda or Southern Cal and “accidentally” hit some residential areas.
Demonizing Hezbollah because the rockets they use have an accuracy measured in miles and they “opt” (ala Fire for Effect) to target population centers verus the “good guy” Isrealis who drop daisy cutters in a community “harboring” terrorists?
This is war. One CAN argue that war is not a solution for terrorism because the terrorists use unorthodox tactics that perform well against our current “Rules of Engagement”. Just as new technologies and unorthodox tactics have succeeded in the past (ie, American revolutionaries), we must find a new way to wage war against terrorists.
“And if military retaliation for terrorism is not only immoral but futile, then political leaders, however cold-blooded their calculations, may have to reconsider their policies.”
If you want to dispatch leftists arguments by saying they inevitably argue the point without offering viable solutions – I commend you. But discriminating for the sake of bolstering rhetoric is beneath your intellect.
Stingray 1, Croc Hunter 0
If you agree with Zinn’s definitions of “inevitable” and “indiscriminate” we have no hope of sensible communication.
I think I understand Zinn’s anti-war psyche well enough.
When you make weapons that can target better, you are making them discriminate better, ie. they are not indiscriminant.
The history of jihad is not simple. You dismiss it as absurd because you still don’t understand much about it. Do you?
Ditto on Hizballah. Please read this.
I’ll stand by my distinction between warriors (meaning civilized ones) and terrorists.
If you give me an example of my “discriminating for the sake of bolstering rhetoric” I’ll try to explain it.
“When you make weapons that can target better, you are making them discriminate better, ie. they are not indiscriminant.”
Hello? If jihadis hide behind baby carriages and we blow them up – its the Jihadis fault the baby died? Making weapons that discriminate “better”? So we kill the jihadi, the baby but, the mom survives as an amputee.
Im concluding that when war is inevitable, the reprehensible characteristics of war follow. The discriminant “smart-bombing” conducted by the US during the Balkans War had its problems (unless you buy the theory the Chinese embassy was targeted on purpose). Certainly the indicriminant bombing by BOTH hezbollah and Isreal are reprehensible.
“The history of jihad is not simple. You dismiss it as absurd because you still don’t understand much about it.”
– His knowledge of history does not appear to include any understanding of … from Spain to India.”
Who said “jihad” is absurd – blaming Islam and dispatching the other reasons is what I refer to as absurd.
Same website for hizbollah:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/palestine.html
Look at the 1600 years prior to Islam – seems pretty violent before Mohammed threw his cock in the ring.
On Hezbollah:
I guess youre the “good guys” if you are on the US payroll – see Taliban reference:
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=11626
Of course once you step out of line youre yesterday’s dog meat.
I faintly remember US arm sales to Iran in the 1980’s…
File under : You reap what you sow.
There is a distinction between warrior and terrorist depending on how wide your paint brush is…
American Indians?
Sherman?
British (Boer War)?
… or which side youre on.
The same goes for “state-sponsored” – do we “sponsor terrorism if we give a group “humanitarian aid” and they perform terrorist acts?
Of course this is a complex issue…
Discriminating:
leftists… logic distorted; moralizing hypocritical and aims obfuscated.
Does that imply rightists are clearly logical, moral and transparent?
Zinn the hypocrite bomber? (Read Zinn’s A just Cause, Not a just War – minor reference to WWI and Vietnam targeting civilians; also, infers the military targets exact heavy price on civilians through indirect losses (disease, starvation, etc)
“The US Congress’…” Attack on Zinn’s failure remark?
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. (well that was a failure)
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
2600+ US military dead; 19000+ wounded; increasing # of jihadis; decreasing foreign diplomatic stature; civil war (or if you prefer “increased sectarian violence”).
But at least we now know Iraq is in compliance with the UN resolutions [http://www.casi.org.uk/info/scriraq.html]
A super duper failure would be if we watched a nation go through a democratic election, elect extremists into office and subsequently punish the country for doing it (FU Hamas).
“Zinn seems to believe that civilized armies…” Zinn would say we go into war knowing the jihadis will force us into causing collateral damage that exceeds the damage caused by the jihadis.
“It also seems safe to assume Zinn knows nothing…” Zinn recognizes the problems with dictators (and would add that western nations have a knack for supporting these dictators while they are useful)and suggests stopping totalitarian regimes (like Hitler) from expanding is necessary. But the actions we take to conduct the war can be futile, cause greater loss of life and can reverse the intended outcome.
“Zinn treats words and numbers like … as a moonbat hero.” You are reading one piece that specifically concludes that “war is not a solution for terrorism” by pointing out the grim reality of modern warfare. There is no hypocrisy or mendacity; You infer it by pointing out the things left unsaid to bolster your reasoning for dismissing his point of view.
Of the 4-6 editorials Ive (now) read of Zinn, I understand it, but disagree with it on the basis that I feel sometimes war is a necessary alternative to failed diplomacy, “appeasement” or isolationism. It doesnt change my distaste for it.
Iraq and Lebanon are good examples where war WAS not the answer.
Cheney proposed the “1% doctrine” – if there’s just a 1 percent chance of the unimaginable coming due, act as if it is a certainty. It’s not about ‘our analysis, It’s about ‘our response.’
I guess Iraq was what – about 0.5%?
“Hello? If jihadis hide behind baby carriages and we blow them up – its the Jihadis fault the baby died? Making weapons that discriminate “better”?”
Yes, of course. Are you having trouble answering these questions?
“So we kill the jihadi, the baby but, the mom survives as an amputee.”
The jihadi cause this, not us. If we don’t strike the jihadi, they will kill us AND whoever else they want anyway. You need to read up on the history of Islam. Unfortunately you have to read between the lines of many sources to even begin to understand. Like most everything in these politically polarized times. The most frank pro-Western writers that I certainly recommend you read are Ibn Warraq and Bat Y’eor. Oriani Fallaci for the cliff notes version. Robert Spencer and Jihad Watch for daily news.
“Look at the 1600 years prior to Islam – seems pretty violent before Mohammed threw his cock in the ring.”
Odd, that timeline doesn’t mention Islam and only uses the word Muslim twice. Anyway, why does it matter who fought over what before Islam? Jihad and sharia threaten civilization right now. That we can trace its history 1400 years back only makes the threat more certain and, thankfully, predictable. We know the duplicity and depravity of the jihadis has no bottom. Their faith in the supremacy of Allah and the infallibility of the Koran is unshakeable. They want to spread this faith, forcably by active jihad when possible, to the entire planet.
“I guess youre the “good guys” if you are on the US payroll”
Of course there are sides. I want civilization to win.
“You are reading one piece that specifically concludes that “war is not a solution for terrorism” by pointing out the grim reality of modern warfare. There is no hypocrisy or mendacity; You infer it by pointing out the things left unsaid to bolster your reasoning for dismissing his point of view.”
Zinn points out the grim reality of modern warfare, which no reader would argue. It is a tautology. He then concludes (because you can conclude whatever you like from a tautology) that war = terrorism. The logic in this work of Zinn’s is flawed, regardless of what he has written elsewhere.
Too bad Saddam didn’t get an Alpha Whiskey Romeo like Zarqawi.
“Hello? If jihadis hide behind baby carriages and we blow them up – its the Jihadis fault the baby died?”
Hello? If Nazi’s occupy Paris and we blow them up – it’s the Nazi’s fault that French men, women, and children die?